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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  September 5, 2010 10:00am-11:00am EDT

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here so we want to move this discussion into the arena we know best. the new furniture is from new york. the fabric from pennsylvania. paint from a firm based in new jersey and the rug made by a michigan company. grand total, 84 electoral votes represented inside the oval office. thanks for watching "state of the union." i'm candy crowley in washington. for our international viewers, world report is next. for everyone else, "fareed zakaria gps" starts right now. this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we have a great show planned for you today. it's three of the most compelling fascinating interviews we've done on gps. first up, a real-life therer with a tragic ending. william browder was once the biggest foreign investner russia. that made him a target. he got out alive but one of his
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loyal left tenants was not as lucky. then we hear so much about the entrepreneurial class in china. but who are they? well, i'll introduce to you a woman who went from working in sweat shops to working in goldman sachs and now is one of the richest women in china, her wealth said to be on par with oprah winfrey's. and finally, have you ever actually met a jihadi? we'll introduce to you one today on a recent trip to london, i met a man who not rest until islamic law is the law of the world and who glorifies the terrorists who killed thousands on 9/11. another can't miss conversation. let's get started. what we have for you now is an extraordinary story. hundreds of millions of dollars stolen. fingers pointed at top government officials.
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torture, abuse, death. and that's just the beginning of what sounds like a best selling thriller. but tragically, it is actually real life. and at the center of it all is our guest wilyak browder. he runs hermitage capital management, once the largest foreign investner russia. let's listen to the story. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> 1996, you decide to go to russia and set up a investment company that is going to invest in russia. >> so what happened was russia at the time in 1996 had gone through this enormous privatization program where the philosophy of the government was in order to go from communism to capitalism, let's give everything away for free. we set up a business to invest in russia. and it had gone very, very well for a number of years. and then we discovered that rush -- they had set up
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capitalism, they hadn't essentially building a house without putting the plumbing in the house. there was no laws and rules at the time. there was an enormous amount of corruption, malfeasance and other terrible things going on inside the companies we invested in. and i felt like the only way that i could responsibly be an investner these companies was to fight the corruption in the companies. >> and you at this point are or very pretty quickly become the largest foreign investner russia. >> i became the largest foreign investner russia. our funds at the peak of our success bas bass $4.5 billion of foreign money invested in the russian stock market. we developed a strategy which seemed a bit crazy at the time which was let's research how they do this dealing. let's figure it all out and then let's share the research with the international media. and we did that. >> this is just about the time that vladimir putin has come to power in russia. so why is putin allowing you to
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do this? >> i was fighting with oligarchs trying to steal money from the companies i was investing in and he was fighting with the same oligarchs trying to steal power from him. for that period of time as we were exposing corruption in these companies, the government was acting. >> was there public approval of what you were doing? >> there's only one group of people that didn't approve of what i was doing, and that was the people who were stealing the money from the companies. i mean, of course, who wouldn't be happy if you find out that the bad guys are getting fired and can't steal money from the gas or electricity company or whatever. but everything changed all of a sudden in 2003. in 2003, in october, mike it will hortkovsky, the richest man in russia and head of the yukos oil company was flying on a private jet to siberia and arrested on the runway in siberia. when they did that, they did one thing psychologically devastating for all the other
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rich people in russia which was they took the richest man in russia and put him into a cage and allowed all the television cameras to film him sitting in a cage. imagine you were the 17th richest guy in russia sitting in your yacht parked off the coat dazure in france and you turn on cnn and see the richest guy sitting in a cage? you want to make sure you're not sitting in a cage. one by one by one, they went back to the kremlin and they declared their allegiance and all of a sudden, put in. >> to putin. >> all of a sudden putin no longer was at odds with the oligarchs. unfortunately, i still was. >> so you go for a business trip abroad to november 2005 and you come back to the airport in russia, and what happens? >> so i arrived at the airport as i had 250 times before in the past decade. i went to the vip lounge at the airport, handed them my passport. and what should have been a
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five-minute process while they process the passport turned into an hour. and after an hour, there was a bunch of commotion and a bunch of officers came into the lounge and they came up to me and said you're not allowed into russia, follow me. and they took me to the detention area of the airport where they kept me for a day and deported me out of russia. >> then russian government decides to go after you in another way which is quite extraordinary. >> so this was nothing. this part of the story was nothing compared to what happened next. so after awhile, i give up on trying to go back to russia. i do something which i'm thankful that i was able to do, which is i took all the money that we had in russia and liquidate it had and took it out of country. i then took all of my people out of the country and i thought more or less okay, that was an unpleasant situation, that was pretty bad, but you know, time to move on. well, i wasn't really able to move on because something truly
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extraordinary happened which was in june of 2007, 25 officers from the moscow interior ministry raided our office in moscow and another 25 officers raided the office of our law firm in moscow with a very specific target which is they wanted to get hold of the stamps and seals and articles of association of our investment companies that we -- through which we had invested in when we made our investments in russia. and -- >> these were the proofs of ownership of the companies so if they had them in effect they could exercise authority of those companies? >> exactly. in order to transfer ownership to, do almost any important activity of the company, you need to have these special documents. so these guys, the police, the moscow police, take away these documents. and then the next thing we know, we no longer own our companies. the companies have been transferred into the name of a convicted murderer.
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so and the only way they could have transferred the companies was using the documents that the police had taken. but that was just the beginning of the unbelievable thing that happened. the next thing we discovered was that our companies had apparently been sued in court without our knowledge based on forged back dated contracts that were created using all of those stolen papers from our offices. and after the -- during the lawsuit, some lawyers show up that we've never hired that we never knew about to defend our companies. >> claiming to represent you. >> claiming to represent us. but instead of defending our companies, they plead guilty. in five-minute hearings, the judge in st. petersburg and moscow and kazan award more than a billion dollars to three shell companies against our companies which we no longer owned. >> so at this point, they have
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tried to take this money out from your companies. but actually there's no money in your companies because you've transfer it had all back to london and given it back to the investors, correct? >> there wasn't a penny in russia. so the billions in judgments got them nothing from me. they went to our banks looking for assets but there was nothing in the banks. >> at this point you hire a bunch of lawyers in russia. >> the moment they raided the offices but at this point as all these strange court decisions come in and strange transfers of ownership, we hire seven lawyers from four different law firms including one very special man named sergey magnitsky, he was a 36-year-old lawyer at the time working for an american law firm. he was an extremely hard working ernest type people who you could call at 7:00 in the evening when you discover some big question you have and he would cancel his dinner plans and stay in the office till midnight to figure out the answer. a decent hard-working young man.
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we said to sergey, help us figure out what's going on with all this lawsuits. he was the one who figured out that the companies had been stolen and transferred to the convicted murderer and figured out that these judgments had been entered into, these huge billion dollar judgments had been entered against our companies. he was the one who figured out that the police were the one who's had the documents that made this all possible. and then he figured out something else, and this is the most astounding part of the whole story, that the reason to steal the companies, the reason to create this billion dollars of judgments was in order for the people who stole our companies to then go to the tax authorities and claim that a billion dollars of profits these companies had made in previous years and $230 million of taxes that we had paid in previous years shouldn't have been paid. because there was a fake billion dollars of losses. and they took these fake losses along with the companies that they stole and they went to the
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tax authorities in moscow and they applied for a $230 million tax refund, which was awarded to them in one day. >> would this have been the largest tax refund ever made? >> this was the largest refund in the history of russian taxes in one day. which tells you for sure that they had people on the inside of the tax ministry involved in the scam. so, so far what, do we know? we've got judges, we've got police officers, we have tax officials, we have lawyers, all these different groups of people involved in this conspiracy to defraud us and defraud the russian government. >> we will be back with more of this extraordinary story right after this. >> they put him in pretrial detention and then started to put pressure on him to withdraw his testimony. his health precipitously went over the edge. he was in excruciating pain. he was in such pain he couldn't
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even lay down. this went on and on. things got worse and worse. it's morning... ♪ and morning is amazing. ♪ it's when we charge into the future. ♪ when we blasted off for the moon. scaled the highest peak. and flew for the very first time. morning starts and changes everything. ♪ it's a clean slate. a fresh start. so come dreamers. and trailblazers. champions. come builders. it's morning. ♪ wake up. and be amazing. does your breakfast make you amazing? ♪
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i use capzasin quick relief gel. [ male announcer ] starts working on contact and at the nerve level to block pain for hours. capzasin. takes the pain out of arthritis. and we are back with william browder, once russia's largest investor to tell an extraordinary story. so they first tried to steal the money from your companies. but when they discover your companies don't have any money left in them, they steal the money from the russian state. >> so exactly. so you basically have sharks feeding on their own blood. it's the most extraordinary
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thing. everybody ask is me, how can the government have allowed this to happen. because highup officials in the government were part of the conspiracy to do this. so sergey magnitsky was the brilliant lawyer who was able to figure this out. it wasn't easy to figure out. and enormous amount of investigative work, 14 months of investigation went into figuring this whole thing out. once we figure it had out, he helped us draft a criminal complaint which we filed with the russian general prosecutor. and then did he something which was extraordinary. in october of 2008, he went and gave sworn testimony to the russian state investigative committee which is like the fbi of russia in which he named the police officers involved in the theft of our companies and the theft of $230 million. he named names. one month after he gave testimony against those sister officers, three other officers who reported to one of the officers he testified against came to his house at 8:00 in the morning in front of his wife and children and arrested him.
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and put him in pretrial detention. so essentially the same people he testified against arrested him. they put him in pretrial detention and they then started to put pressure on him to withdraw his testimony. they did really horrible things. they put him in a cell with eight inmates and four beds so that the inmates had to fight over the beds and sleep in shifts. they put him in cells without any windows in the moscow winter so the cold air just blew in. they put him in cells where there was no toilet, just a hole in the floor and sewage would bubble up from time to time. after several months of this, they came to him and said, everything can improve if you withdraw your testimony against us and plead guilty to a trumped up charge to justify why we've done this to you. and sergey was a man of intense integrity who said no, doesn't matter what you do to me. i'm not going to withdraw my
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testimony. i certainly will not pittsburgher myself. they moved him from cell to cell to cell more than ten times. every time they move him, they would lose his belonging including one crucial belonging which was a water boiler because the water is undrinkable in the prison. they loft his ability to sterilize the water. so after about six months of this, he started getting very ill. he started getting sick all the time. he lost 40 pounds. he had intense excruciating stomach pains and he was eventually given an appointment at the prison hospital and they said it looks like have you pan creeia tighttis and gallstones. you should come back in about a month's time and we'll do an ultrasound. if nothing is improved, we have to perform an operation. it wasn't an operation -- it wasn't a complicated operation but it was a life-saving operation. they came to him again and asked him to withdraw his testimony.
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he refused. one week before his operation, they then abruptly moved him to a prison which is a maximum security prison, the harrishest toughest prison in moscow and there was no hospital there. at that point, his health went over the edge. he was in excruciating pain. nervous such pain he couldn't lay down. his cell mate would have to bang on the door for hours trying to get medical attention. when they got there, they said you can have the medical attention when you get out of jail. things got worse and worse. on november 16th, 2009, sergey magnitsky died in prison at the age of 37. >> he was 37 years old. >> he was 37 years old. he was a lawyer, a father of two, married, and he died right in the heart of his life. >> and he was not a great human rights advocate. he was a tax lawyer who just happened to be an honorable man
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who wouldn't give into this kind of pressure? >> he wasn't an oligarch, he wasn't a human rights activist. he wasn't a journalist uncovering, going after people. he was my tax lawyer who happened to be assigned this situation where he was trying to figure out what was going on. when he saw what was going on, he said this is unbelievable. this is my country. they can't be allowed to do this. he wasn't a person going out and looking for trouble but when trouble found him, did he what he had to do which was stand up to it and it cost him his life. he was a young urban professional working at a law firm who buys starbucks in the morning who was plucked out of his job, put into a prison and tortured to death. we all could be sergey magnitsky is what they said. this bubbled up in the press and eventually, president medvedev had to do something about it. he called for a criminal investigation into what happened
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to sergey magnitsky. even the president of the country after calling for a criminal investigation, we're now six months later there hasn't been a single person charged with any wrongdoing. not a single person charged. >> what does this say about russia today? >> unfortunately what it says is that there's criminality that permeates the government and the law enforcement agencies at the highest level. and it's impossible if the president of the country who causes for an investigation can't get an investigation, it says to you, how difficult this problem really is. and how russia really doesn't operate in the same legitimate manner that you would assume other countries to operate in. >> so this is a kind of almost a state run by the mafia. >> it's a state which many, many important organs of the state are mafia controlled for certain. >> and you're not optimistic
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that much is changing? >> well, the one thing i can say about russia is that it's always changing. it may change for the worst or for the better. russia is never a static country. but where we are today is extremely bad situation. >> william browder, thank you very much. >> thank you very much. and we will be back. >> let me tell you something, if there was an election between any leader of the muslim countries in the world today and osama bin laden would win hands down. >> except there are elections in the muslim world and they do terribly. track in the world. with us, in spirit, was every great car that we'd ever competed with. the bmw m5. and the mercedes-benz e63. for it was their amazing abilities that pushed us to refine, improve and, ultimately, develop the world's fastest production sedan. [ engine revving ] the cts-v, from cadillac. the new standard of the world.
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have you ever met a jihadi? well, you're about to. it's easier to find them in london than in new york. in fact, earlier in the decade, london took on a nickname, londonistan. the origins of which were obvious, a brand of radical islam seemed to flourish. at the center was the mosque. 80s imam openly preached jihad and played hosts to terrorists ranging from the missing 9/11 hijacker to the shoe bomber richard reed. britain has cracked down on some of the activity that the fins bury mosque is closed and al masri is imprisoned. yet jihadis continue to preach openly in mosques and meeting houses here. one is anjem choudary who has praised both the 9/11 attacks in new york and the 77 bombings in
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london five years ago. he has called for the imposition of sharia law in britain. i thought it would be worth your meeting him. he joins me now. tell me we're five years past the 7/7 attacks, the subway bombings in london. and you say that you think there will be more because britain hasn't learned the lesson of 7/737. what was the lesson? >> the lesson was if you have certain causes in place, the occupation of muslim land, the murder of innocent men, women and children as in iraq and afghanistan, if you support the enemies of islam almost seems like the israelis who are occupying our land and if you bring in a host of the laws, this is bound to have a backlash. the situation has regressed five years on. >> many mainstream islamic scholars who have very wide followings which are documented say that people like are you a fringe of a fringe, that you
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really have almost no followers. >> yeah. >> this is a great publicity-seeking enterprise but there's nobody behind you. >> i believe there are many people who have the same ideas because my ideas are islamic. i don't speak for any one individual organization. i try to propagate what is the islamic viewpoint. >> people just listening to you the first thing i think they would think at heat of in the united states and i think in many parts of the world, gosh this guy doesn't sound like a jihadi. do you think of yourself as british. >> i'm a muslim first and last. if i'm in britain and have a passport, that's a travel document. if i was in america, i would have a travel document with an american institution on it. at the end of the day, our identity is defined by our thoughts and ideas. my ideology is islam is something i believe in, i live by and i want to struggle for and i'm willing to sacrifice for. i am determined and defined by what i believe, not where i was born or my lineage or you know or what the government would
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have me labeled as. >> is there any government of any country that is muslim that you support? >> we have today about 55 so-called muslim countries. none of them implementing the sharia. some of the worst and most barbaric are the iranian regime. they're implementing nonislamic law. this is more dangerous because when you give a semblance of sharia and you after that oppress the people, it gives the impression there's something wrong with the sharia. >> why don't you want to spend more time overturning the government of saudi arabia rather than britain? >> i live in the world which has been created by god. wherever i am, i would propagate islam. i would implement the sharia if i can. if i go to shash, i'll do the same there. >> isn't it fair to say it is much easier for you to espouse your views in an open democracy if you were to say what you're saying in iran, they would kill you. if you would say it in saudi
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arabia, at the very least they would imprison you. here you get to be on television. >> i believe much of the west is looking for an alternative. you can be see to the mps and the. >> you think the solution to the credit crunch is shah rillia law? >> of course. you can talk to me about anything about the economy in the west, i can give you an alternative. >> if you look at polling done across the islamic world, what you find is support for the kind of ideas you're describing has been dramatically falling all over the world. >> if you go into the streets of indonesia or malaysia or pakistan, the streets of lahore and say to them what they think about sheikh osama bin laden. >> when was the last time you were in indonesia. >> about three or four months ago. >> i've been to both places. i would say the polling is also consistent with my personal observations. >> if there was an election between any leader of the muslim countries in the world today and sheikh osama bin laden, he would
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win hands down. >> except there are elections in half the muslim world and the muslim fundamentalists let alone the jihadis do terribly. last time they got one seat. >> i'm not propagating the idea of democracy and freedom because these things are anathema to muslim. these fellows are more plampb. >> they're not popular because they are -- laeks in pakistan, there are elections in india. there are elections in indonesia. >> if you go to any ordinary practicing muslim in any part of the muslim world, we believe the sharia needs to be implemented. >> how do you explain when there are elections they don't vote for these people. >> they don't believe voting is believed. >> they do stand for them. there are islamic fundamentalist parties. >> they're not actually biding by the sharia. you don't believe in democracy because democracy separates god from lives affairs and politics. we believe the whole of the system including the politics must be according to shah rillia law. >> this is like having a debate
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with a pure marxist. no markism has ever been implemented so you can never test it. you talked about the reasons why there was jihad and why you were advocating it and why the britain had not learned the lessons of 7/7. you talk about the occupation of afghanistan, iraq, et cetera. so what what were the reasons for the planning of the attacks 9/11, the attacks in nairobi and kenya during that period when al qaeda was planning attacks on the united states, the united states' foreign policy's central objective in the mid you-1990s was saving bosnia's muslims from ethnic cleansing and annihilation by the serbians. >> history did not begin in the 1990s. the americans were supporting the pirate state of israel occupying muslim land. before the 1990s, they had puppet regimes in our countries who they were feeding with
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weapons of mass destruction being used against our own civilian population. >> you don't deny the united states tried to save. >> it was not about that. to secure their own mirt, strategic and idea logic interests. >> it sounds like a lot of big words. they went and tried to save the bosnian muslims from being massacred. >> what they did when they came into bosnia, they took the weapons from the bosnia muslims and allowed the serbs to slaughter them. this is the reality. >> that was not american policy. american policy was to come in and correct that. >> they will lie as much as they can about their foreign policy. their policy was to establish their own interests. >> kuwait, saving the people, the people of kuwait from an iraqi invasion. that is saving one muslim country frommer. >> that's nonsense. there's no difference between iraq and kuwait and saudi arabia. all of this is muslim land. >> one group of people were
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killing the others. >> this is not true. the ordinary muslims don't have a problem with each other. we believe our land, our war -- >> ordinary kuwaiti muslims were being killed. >> this is not correct. the iraqi and kuwaiti regimes had interests, mainly oil interests with the british and americans. this changed hands after the first gulf war. they shifted in favor of the americans. so the americans had economic interests in the area. beside which the two regimes in the are well-known to be puppets of americans and british. it's not about the muslims fighting each other. >> the iraqi saddam hussein was a puppet when he invaded kuwait? >> the main superpower. >> you have to go to make your world view work. tell me your -- you present yourself as a man of religion and as a holy man. islam says if you kill one life, it is like killing the whole world. >> muslim life. >> are you comfortable that the
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kind of thing you are advocating most of the jihad taking place it kills muslims. >> that's rubbish. >> the jihadis in pakistan whom are they killing? the jihadis in inknownesia, in saudi arabia. >> if you look at the reality, if you open your eyes a little bit you will find the cia agents in the are the ones carrying out operations in public plays and trying to credit the mujahadin by blaming it upon them. >> you're saying all the operations that are taking place now in pakistan, in afghanistan, where people go and blow up cafes, blow up bus stops are all actually secret cia operations, the young muslim who have bombs strapped to their belts are undercover blackwater agents. >> wait a second. what i'm saying is each operation needs to be looked at on its own merit. you will find mm of them carried out in the public arena are in fact carried out by agents of the americans. via the cia. >> the 7/7 attacks killed
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muslim. >> the 7/7 operation was not targeted toward the muslim community. >> it killed muslims. >> in the time of the prophet, they used cat pa puts abtargeted the enemy and there were innocent -- >> so those are okay killing christians and jews. >> let me just finish. there were innocent women and children there among the dead. the prophet said don't target them but if you target the enemy and they're there, they're part of the target. nobody will target women and children and people not part. >> what were they targeting? >> obviously they were targeting the tra structured. >> they were targeting the subway cars? they were targeting the people. of course, they were targeting the people the will of muhammad, they were carrying out the operation against the british and obviously they were carrying out operation against the british public and the infrastructure because of what was taking place. >> they were trying to attack the subway cars, subway buses. >> how do you know they were targeting the buss. >> they were deliberately trying
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to kill people, innocent men women and children. >> i agree with you. not women and children but they were targeting people. >> there were women and children there. >> let me ask you a question. >> that's not the rules. the rule is i get to ask you questions. >> who are the people who elected the british prime minister or the american president? >> you may it's okay. you're saying it's okay. >> no, i'm asking you a question. who elected them. >> let me answer your question. what you're saying is because. >> i'm asking you a question. who is the one who elected the president of america. >> are you going to let me answer? what you're saying is because ordinary americans and ordinary brits elected their government, they are a fair target to be killed randomly. >> what about the support for the jewish state of israel? >> is the american force bombing. >> who has given them billions of dollars? >> let me ask you something simple. >> let me ask you that. >> we're going to end this
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program or you're going to answer my question. >> who were they fund bid? >> we're having a conversation. >> we're not. we're having an interview where i'm interviewing you. you claim to be a man of rng. you claim to be a holy man. are you comfortable with the fact that what you're advocating is going to mean the death of innocent men, women and children. >> no, what i'm advocating is for the british. >> it is, because it's already happened. i just want to know can you live with that. >> can i answer the question? i'm advocating the removal of foreign forces from muslim countries, stopping the support for the state of israel. in return there can be some kind of normallization. as long as muslim land is occupied and innocent men, women and children are killed by the american, british foreign policy, there will be repercussions. >> there's no occupation of afghanistan or iraq when 9/11 was being planned and you were still advocating this. >> before that, they were killing innocent muslims. >> where? >> they were killing them in israel, for example. >> american forces? >>, of course, they were. >> you've got to get your history right. >> my history is correct.
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i'm afraid you're living in the world of cnn. >> i am living in the world of cnn as are you right this minute. we'll be right back. >> we're only allowed to make money. nothing else. that's why all the focus is on making money. and i think that's not enough for human beings. [ male announcer ] rome wasn't built in a day... ...and it wasn't built on coffee and a danish. quaker instant oatmeal. now with bigger oats for a heartier texture,
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and medicare denies your claim, we'll give you your new power chair or scooter free. i didn't pay a penny out of pocket for my power chair. with help from the scooter store, medicare and my insurance covered it all. call the scooter store for free information today. >> i'm candy crowley. here are today's top stories. suicide bombers struck an iraqi military base in central baghdad killing seven people, injuring 21 others.
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the attack comes four days after the united states officially ended its combat operations in iraq. the failed blowout preventer that triggered the bp oil well explosion in the gulf has been brought to the surface and placed on a vessel. the device was taken into custody by the justice department as evidence in its investigation into the incident. despite the sluggish economy, more americans are expected to travel this labor day weekend. aaa expects 34 million people will hit the roads and airways. that's a nearly 10% increase in holiday travel over this time last year. those are your top stories. up next, much more "fareed zakaria gps" and then on "reliable sources" howard kurtz looked alt how the media covered president obama's iraq speech. . they go through every car and truck we make with a big fat red pencil. because they know a family's going to be inside. a teenager. a guy on the way to the job. the engineers of chevrolet.
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we talk about china's explosive growth often on this program. but who exactly has gotten rich in all that growth and what do they think of china? well, china has a new billionaire class. and one of its richest and most prominent members is a developer named zhang xin who has built some of the biggest buildings in beijing. she happens to be a woman with an amazing life story. she grew up in a hong kong slum, spent her childhood working in a shoe factory and worked hard enough to get herself to university, then goldman sachs, and she is now the ceo and founder of so ho china, one of the largest real estate firms in the country and therefore, the world. you would think that someone who got so rich off china's current system would defend it vigorously. buliston what zhang xin told me when i sat down with her last week in beijing.
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>> you know, on the one hand, of course, this is a moment where the government can spend a lot of money and they have a lot of money. on the other hand, they're facing the biggest challenge ever. you know, we have the at this moment, the income disparity is so huge. and you talk about you know, the social disconsent is so strong and i think the sentiment in the public, it's not that positive. you know, despite the gdp number seems to be growing very high, if you just take the number, yes, you will believe that's everything. i was talking to you, if you go into chinese twitter, you see the massive public discontent. i think that government is really trying to balance both. >> what do you think of state-run capitalism? you must have to deal with government officials all the time getting land and things like that. >> that is actually the single biggest challenge china faces now because bear in mind, how do we become you know economically
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affluent to today's level? it's through the market economy. through opening doors, through market -- through reforms, through moving more towards market economy. that's the last 20 years. and now, in this crisis, the government realized that we cannot rely on the market too much and we have a lot of money. so then it all become all government dictated government oriented policies. and i think the market has become so weak that we as a developer, for instance, you know, very often investors would ask, what is your strategy for the next two years. we have no strategy because it's the government who sets the strategy. government's planning, government's decision. so you know, it's really we as a developer can only see what will the government likely to come out with the next policy, and then we need to gear our company towards that. that i think is very dangerous because if you take away the market, then what are we left? we're left back to the planning
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economy. as imperfect as the market economy, we still do not have a better system for that for today's world your. >> company is named so ho china. a lot of your buildings have american style names. is there a change in the attitude of the chinese people towards the west, towards america? >> i do think that the american glory is fading a bit. you know, if i were to look back in the last 30 years, you know, of course in the beginning of the 30 years, everybody was looking towards america. you know, going to america was the theme among the graduates of university graduates. still so, but you know more, and more people are thinking you know, right after university immediately coming back to china. we hire mba graduates from the u.s. business schools. and then i see these chinese young graduates, i say why don't you work in america for a few
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years. they're like, no, no, we want to come back immediately because the opportunities are better here. >> one of the things i've noticed zhang xin about china when i've come is that women work here at every level in the society. first of all, is that just my impression or is it true that there are many people, maybe not quite at your level but there are many female entrepreneurs, businessmen, people in all walks of life? >> i think that is certainly true. you know in, china, if i were to say that compared to many other countries where i lived and worked before, this is the country where women have at least in the urban area, you know if we take away the rural area, urban area, women have are enjoying very high level of equality if not completely equal but at least high level of equality compared to european countries for instance. you know, you don't see so many women in board rooms.
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and here in china, i think you see many. top ceos are actually women. >> you talked about how the government is worried about instability. and if you look at the government's own sticks, the number of protests have risen quite a lot in the last ten years. i mean to 70,000, 80,000 protest ayear, many of these are small and localized but still, so much change in a society. there must be a lot of pentup tension. do you worry about that? >> i see a lot of discontent. and you know, the high growth itself, it's already instability to everybody. but also, there are some people growing faster than the others. and that gap creates more discontent. so i think the government is very much aware of this. and i see this as one of the biggest challenges for this country. >> one of the things that's been
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happening in china is a lot of the labor trouble which seems to have come together some very large companies that are doing huge amount of manufacturing for all the big western brands. do you think that there's something special happening at this moment? why is it that there's so much labor trouble? >> if you see the, this government has allowed this country's economy to grow, nearly freely to where it is now. but in every other areas that matters to also to the human being, you know in, ideology in, education, health care, in spirituality, is tightly controlled. and that's why we're seeing this labor problems. these people are migrant worker who's go to a new city. they're there just to make money because they're not supported by their family or friends. i think if the society is more liberalized in all the other areas, culture, politics it, ideology, then you will see a very different society than
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where it is now where only allowed to make money, nothing else. that's why all the focus is on making money. and i think that's not enough for human being. >> are you optimistic at the end of the day? you've been more successful. you're living the chinese dream. >> i think china will first hit the crisis first. and that crisis will push more reforms. and that's desperately needed for this country. because we've been living a life as the world manufacturer, the world factory for the last 30 years. and it is not -- we're not going to go forward for the next 30 years as the world factory. we have to reform our own internally. that i see today there's not enough strengths to push that reform. you know, like you say, it's the crisis that enables the reform. i see a crisis coming. >> on that note, thank you very much. -- captions by vitac --
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there's no question of the week this week. we wanted to give your brains a rest and probably ours, too. it's august. but do i want to recommend a book as i do every week. this week it's a beach read with a gps twist i suppose. it's called "a good man in
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africa," written by william boyd. the story of a new diplomat sent to be her majesty's representative to a small african nation. when he arrives just about everything that could go wrong does go wrong. it's a dark comedy sure to make you chuckle. it's the end of the summer. many of you are probably looking back wistfully at some rounds of golf you played over the last few months. but i doubt many of you played those rounds in a war zone or even knew you could. one entrepreneur has opened a golf course in afghanistan. just outside of kabul. it might not be up to par for you, but it's all they've got in afghanistan. there is no grass. the fairways are covered with stones, and oil. instead of a water hazard, there's a well. and outside of the clubhouse, a remnant of a russian military base. it's riddled with bullet holes. before the course


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